French clubs set to stay in the HEC
French clubs will not quit Europe's leading cup competitions to play in an alternative tournament just with English clubs.
The vice-president of the French National Rugby League (LNR) Patrick Wolff said his organisation wanted to continue playing the Heineken Cup with both the English and the Celtic clubs but had resisted serious pressure from the heads of the English Premiership to split from the present competitions.
All the stakeholders in European Rugby Cup (ERC - the tournament organisers) which are the respective national league authorities and federations from the Six Nations playing countries are set to meet on Tuesday in Dublin at the request of the French and the English to negotiate a new deal for the competitions from the 2014/15 season.
The English and French teams believe the Heineken Cup's current format is weighted in favour of the Celtic nations as Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven editions between them.
Leinster have won three of the last four Heineken Cups and their rivals in England and France claim that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the PRO12 season.
The English and French sides believe no more than six PRO12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides who currently qualify automatically.
However, Wolff said that there was no way the French would do anything as dramatic as walking away hand in hand with their English counterparts.
"The English put a lot of pressure on us in the past few months to accept the idea of an alternative Franco/Anglo club competition almost like it was a condition before discussing anything else," he told AFP.
"That we did not want to do.
"Save a catastrophic failure at the negotiations, which I don't think will happen, we want to play with the Celts and with the English.
"For us, there is a product (the European Cup). This product must be improved at the negotiations.
"We wish that everything will be resolved by the end of the year. Rugby has no interest in being swept up in uncertainty during two years.
"It is imperative that everyone structures things properly in their own country."
Wolff's conciliatory tone ahead of the talks was in contrast to his English counterparts (Premiership Rugby) who last week announced to great fanfare a TV deal with BT Vision worth £152 million ($245 million) over four years from next season.
However, continental rugby chiefs say a clause granting BT exclusive live broadcast rights to matches played by Premiership clubs in any future European competitions from 2014-15 for three years is invalid.
In a statement issued following a board meeting at its Dublin headquarters last Wednesday, ERC said the "purported deal" was in breach both of International Rugby Board (IRB) regulations and an ERC board mandate.
The statement said it was "unanimously agreed" at an ERC board meeting on June 6 that ERC would conclude a new four-year agreement with satellite broadcaster Sky Sports for the UK and Ireland exclusive live broadcast rights to the European Cup and the European Challenge Cup until 2018.
However, following that ERC statement BT's executive director Mark Watson said that he was willing to create a new European competition when the present deal with ERC ends at the climax of the 2013-14 season.
Comments
crunchfit says...
@ APV1
No worries man, one of the nicer / more genuine posters here even if we have some very different point of views.
Posted 19:08 26th September 2012
Toulousain says...
funny, i'm still waiting for an answer from you crunchfit. you may not be an anglophobe, but you seem to be happy to ignore we french. and then complain on another page that APV is ignoring you. (do you have a man crush?)
what's the word i'm looking for? double standards or hypocrite. can't decide. you choose.
btw, i'm afraid the anglo-french arguments are very simple, and are being made by the powers that be, i.e. not any of us. i think it is time to just agree to disagree and see how the cookie crumbles. it's out of our hands. being polite is not. let's focus on that instead.
Posted 18:08 26th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ crunchfit - please accept my genuine apology for non-response. I'm so sick and tired of the nonsensical anti-English rubbish, that I'm probably missing bits.
Let me have them again and I'll do my best.
The comments I picked out were from a variety of people, although some more than others. They were generalist comments, which is why I selected them, although they were all related to the HC debate.
Posted 17:37 26th September 2012
crunchfit says...
@ APV1
My questions are direct and simple. Surely, if your argument is actually valid it would have been easier to answer the questions then spend time picking out parts of comments. Not to mention, a bunch of those comments are from one poster and many are about those involved in the decision making, not the English people.
Anyway, I'm not an anglophobe and you posted some of that comment before to get me to respond. Now I have and you won't answer my questions. It seems to me like you don't have a good answer, to be honest. Maybe you do though and in that case, maybe you could provide an answer.
Posted 15:54 26th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ crunchfit - here's why I can't be bothered anymore. The Anglophobes have got their wish - another opportunity to have a go and not discuss rugby. The labelling of a whole nation and / or all of its supporters is shameful:
typically English and arrogant
Arrogant English as usual!
WOW the Enger-lish are looking pretty stupid now aren't they??? hahahaha BOOM
The greedy English amateurs
the utter arrogance and insubordination of your moronic bartering
English rugby is a laughing stock not only due to your endless stupidity
You're greedy and inherently dishonest
the greedy English
the English made fools of themselves AGAIN
your greasy tills and greed-inspired calculations
We all know about you English folks... what's yours is yours and what belongs to someone else is yours also.
just because they want more tv money for there own coffers
just pathetic whinging
throwing their toys out of the pram
Typical bitter Anglo/French behaviour
this boils down to financial greed
Whinge whinge moan moan - typical English
Pathetic
The English and French leagues are full of mercenaries playing for big fat greedy pay cheques
if ever there was proof of English whinging, this is surely it. whing, whinge, and more bloody whinge...
shameful bullying
the Arrogance of the these people knows no bounds
its really pathetic
trying to get there grubby little hands on every penny they can
Unbelievable arrogance
leaving them drown in the greed they so crave
the destroyers of a great game in Europe
I say sod the arrogant English
it is just arrogance
nothing more than pure greed
greedy English
Your arrogance is astounding
the English money-grubbing nation of shop-keepers
800 years of crimes against humanity
whining victimisation
Just like the English
The English are now toxic.
endless greed and disregard for the law
the centuries of crimes in your wake
Posted 13:23 26th September 2012
Toulousain says...
@crunchfit. you're kidding right? you try to have a go at APV1 for not responding when the open questions are at your door? we have answered your questions. there is no lack of logic in our position. i really can't spell it out in any more basic terms. i guess APV1 has just thrown in the towel.
what is that english expression? "there's none blinder than those who won't see" hmmm.
Posted 22:28 24th September 2012
crunchfit says...
@APV1
Any response to my questions? If you don't want to answer, no problem. I just thought that you would seeing as this is the second time you made that point to me (i've just seen that old post in the Loose Pass story that you mentioned) so I assume you were interested enough in my response to read it. I'm just trying to see the logic behind English fans', such as yourself's, issues with the Pro12. They don't seem logical to me and when I point out flaws in your arguments in response to your comments, which just seem a little too obvious, I have yet to get a response or get answers to questions I ask.
If your arguments are so convincing, why is there such a lack of response to the questions or pointing out of what seem to be obvious flaws in the logic of your arguments?
Posted 17:55 24th September 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
Hahahah! AWESOME!!!!! Northern Hemisphere rugby is the winner, almost! There's a risk that Italy will get sold down the river by a compromise that allows say 8 pro 12 teams to qualify. which is plain selfish but it will ensure celtic stars get the rest all rugby players need to stay fit and in form.
Personally, I think the PRO12 are in a great position. They have a strong argument for resting players and so should stick to their guns and the onus should be on england and france to pull themselves up to the benchmark set by the likes of Leinster, Ulster and Munster. We should be improving the rugby, thats the primary goal that every rugby fans wants. England and France focus on the business side to the detriment of the rugby so the balance is blatently wrong. This whole eurocup PRL farce has been a public relations disarster for the english clubs. I'm English and I've just got utter contempt for them. Heads should roll. They want to act like businessmen then resign and take the consequenses of their incompetence like businessmen. How is this different to the incompetance shown by the RFU last year? Its not. PRL have messed up big time and their reputation is in tatters.
Posted 12:20 21st September 2012
Toulousain says...
@crunchfit - don't worry if you don't feel you want to reply. i am learning your non-responsive style from other pages, especially when you don't want to accept things!!
Posted 10:42 21st September 2012
7ton says...
OK we have the Edinburgh and Zebre cases but isn't it a bit petty to begrudge these 2 teams as we should want to see rugby expand in Scotland and Italy
Posted 10:37 21st September 2012
Toulousain says...
@crunchfit: You say "...resting players for a single game where they know they can't make the play-offs, for a much bigger game, in a bigger tournament means that teams in the Pro12 in general, not specifically Edinburgh, don't try?...."
I think everyone can agree that simply because Edinburgh rested players, it doesn't follow that all Pro12 sides rest players, and/or don't care. Maybe some do. But not all. Fair point.
What I find interesting is that you define the HCup as "a much bigger game, in a bigger tournament". That's the point. For most French teams, the HCup is not the "bigger game". T14 is the bigger game. We rest players for HCup games. We don't care much about losing to Celtic sides. It's not a big deal to us. Because we know we could beat them, if it was a level playing field. But it's not. So we don't try.
Take a look at Biarritz last season if you need any example of how motivation and prioritisation affects the outcome of games. They knew from about mid-February they were doomed in T14. So they "focussed" on the Amlin. And they won the damn thing, beating sides like Toulon along the way!!
Imagine if all French sides could "focus" on the HCup. It would at least make us worth beating.
Posted 10:29 21st September 2012
porridge_time says...
So what if Edinburgh rested players and focused on the HC last season. The professional game in Scotland consists of two teams and it needs entry into a European competition in order to grow. Both Edinburgh and Glasgow are gradually improving and who knows where they will be this season, but if the rich English clubs are appeased here then the professional game in Scotland and Italy will be sunk.
This is about money and about English Clubs not winning the European Cup all the other stuff is subderfuge.
Posted 02:16 21st September 2012
crunchfit says...
@APV1
There's a difference between resting players a week prior to the Toulouse match, and completely abandoning the Pro12 (or something to that effect), as has been suggested recently. Besides, people point to Edinburgh as an example and suggest all teams abandon the league.
So, people on your side of the argument think that resting players for a single game where they know they can't make the play-offs, for a much bigger game, in a bigger tournament means that teams in the Pro12 in general, not specifically Edinburgh, don't try? And you think that that demeans and devalues the competition? That doesn't really make sense to me. Sorry. If you're in two competitions, your fate is sealed in one, and you have a chance to win in the other, clearly you prioritise the latter. And prioritise is a bit of an exaggeration. It was really just resting players for a single game, not prioritising.
Posted 23:37 20th September 2012
Sincero says...
Cheers, porridge!
APV, I'd actually agree with all of that. I sent in a query at the end of the season to a rugby program that airs in Ireland precisely on that topic. What Edinburgh did wasn't respectable, but they exploited the system. It's certainly part of the reason why we're having this debate now. (However I do see a fair bit of jealousy at the successes of the provinces as being the larger part of this being brought up)
My suggested solution was to keep the 10 berths (to which I feel we're entitled as a European league representing 4 Unions, rather than a domestic league representing one- the two simply do not equate), but do away with automatic qualification for the Scots and Italians. All of the lower teams in the league are well capable of qualifying on merit, perhaps with the exception of Zebre, who have disappointed so far. It'd be fairer on 1/2-funded Connacht, and to also to degree on the fully-funded Dragons. Treviso deserve their European Cup place- they're no push over, and have taken a few scalps. Even Aironi managed that. But if you pluck Zebre now in the pool stages it throws the whole Cup out of whack. Far better to have a superior team there on merit, and allow Zebre time to grow in the Challenge. Plus the lower end of the league becomes far more competitive. And there would be no more taking the peas like Edinburgh did last year.
Posted 16:18 20th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Sincero - as I posted on the Loose Pass thread and on other HC threads, Edinburgh, imo, had little respect for the Pro12 and decided to rest players:
http://tiny.cc/4d1sjw
That's why people are suggesting that some teams don't try. Because they prioritise. I understand why, I just don't like it and think it demeans and devalues the competition.
And, as a Bath fan, I too was disppointed with the result and (especially) the performance at the Rec (just see my comments). We have the talent, especially in the back 3, to play some fantastic rugby. Bendy's try proved that. But we're lacking a play-maker at 10 and Barkley's filling in. He's an ok 10, but not a Beaver (with his experience and rugby-vision) or a Heathcote (with his youthful flair and exuberance).
@ 7ton - as you say, teams will always miss out unless every team plays every other team. But that's where the Amlin comes in. I think we're trying to get to a sensible place and I hope that the Unions, ERC, PRL, etc can get there too.
My personal two bug-bears are automatic qualification for teams, regardless of their standard (e.g. Zebre) and teams which are almost encouraged to "do an Edinburgh". And, as I see it, that's what most French and English fans object to as well. A pan-Eropean salary cap wouldn't go amiss either, but I think that's a bit of a pipe dream, along with foreign player restrictions being unified.
Posted 10:07 20th September 2012
porridge_time says...
You know us English take these things very seriously.
We all know about you English folks... what's yours is yours and what belongs to someone else is yours also.
Sincero has hit the nail firmly on the head in his summary.
Posted 07:55 20th September 2012
porridge_time says...
Anybody else see a pattern emerging?
Yes!
Posted 05:44 20th September 2012
7ton says...
APV1
Giving consideration to your suggestion that the top 6 teams from each league go into the HC it may well be that the 7th finisher in the Rabo could be on many occasions better than the 6th finishers in the AP or T14.
Now that goes completely against your your view that the HC should be for the best teams in Europe only regardless whether all 6n countries are included or not.
Who can ever say that all the top finishers in the AP or T14 are going to be better than the 7th or even 8th finisher of the Rabo? Even as the format is now an Irish or Welsh team missing out may claim they are better than the 6th placed AP/T14 team.
The only way we could have it by your principle is if every team in Europe were to all play each other home and away.
For obvious time and other factors this would not be possible unless we just have one big European league and forget the rest.
In regards to making the Rabo more competitive one possibility may be to reduce the amount of Rabo teams that qualify from 10 to 8 or even 7 then have 1 team each from Italy and Scotland and 2 or even just 1 each from Ireland and Wales that have a guaranteed place and then let the rest fight it out.
To make up the full HC numbers bring in more from the Amlin and/or include the runner up from the previous years HC.
Another idea could be to reduce the amount of Auto qualifiers from the AP/T14 as well and have some sort of play off between the "just losers" of all 3 leagues but time may be a factor.
There are many possibilities and I just hope that the powers that be can get there heads together and have a reasoned debate which does take into consideration the greater good of rugby
Posted 21:37 19th September 2012
Sincero says...
And what the bugger makes you think teams are hardly trying in the Pro 12? That's really very presumptuous of you, and also very much not the case. I watched Ulster host Munster at Ravenhill last weekend, and also watched Saints visit the Rec. I had a little combination bet on, you see? Now, without many of the internationals back, the pace, execution, the power and the passion of the game that was on show in Belfast would completely eclipse anything you have on show in England. Utter dross at the Rec. And then Leicester - Sarries the other day? The big teams? This is the mad thing- instead of thinking about why you can't produce rugby of any decent standard you immediately try to hamstring duplicitously your neighbours in an attempt to drag the game back to your level. It's really quite abhorrent.
We've got our own problems with the game in Italy, Scotland and Wales, and your solution is to make the first two extinct and the last endangered? Instead of trying to murder the sport until nobody else is left, as per your tradition, why not give rugby up altogether and concentrate on something you love doing that nobody else can be bothered with?
Enter a 'boring conversations about weather international championship', or a 'treating animals as if the are people cup'... or a 'general knowledge quiz on the Duchess of Cambridge's knickers'... something you're guaranteed to win as a nation. And leave the rugby alone, folks. Better for everyone.
Posted 17:47 19th September 2012
Sincero says...
TVaddict says...
'Leinster finishing in the top six is irrelevant when the teams they're playing against are hardly trying. That is one of the many points you seem unable to grasp. You are as diplomatic and intelligent as the people running the premiership!'
I'm not trying to be diplomatic, mate. And clearly neither are you lot. What led you to call me unintelligent. A little ad hominem, no? I'm not trying to insult anyone, pal. I'm fairly confident in my level of intelligence too, so not offended, just puzzled. I'm not slagging you off. I specifically said I like your fans. It's just this kind of carry-on makes you... less popular, shall we say?
'@ Sincero - therein lies the problem. When we were invited back in and offered a cup of tea, it was rubbish. It wasn't brewed correctly. The milk went in the cup first (an absolute No! No!). There was no lemon as an alternative. The list goes on.'
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if it contained more saliva than tea after all that, though. So you're saying you think you should have seen a far higher % of the Sky money, or are you just extending the analogy?
I must say, in the past you used to kick off after any success, but this time that's not the case. Your national team is trousers, your clubs can't hold their own at all, and your brand of rugby could be sold in D.I.Y. shops as a paint drying aid. Your position is laughably weak.
So what now? A 'PREMIER EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP OF THE WORLD AND UNIVERSE CUP' with teams just from England? I'll pay you 20 quid in advance now not to bother boring me with the details of who wins it.
Posted 17:36 19th September 2012