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You say: ""Nobody came close to the Springboks when [Jake White] was in charge, they were winning World Cups and Tri-nations"".
Really? Let us take a look at the facts.
Yes, the Boks won the 07 world cup after the top team, the All Blacks, were not-whistled out of the corner-final. Their toughest opponents were Argentina (highest ever world ranking: four) and they struggled against both Tonga (30-25) and Fiji (tied at 20-20 after 60 minutes, 23-20 after 69 minutes, pulled clear in last 10 minutes to win 37-20). So Tonga and Fiji most definitely came close to South Africa. What about other teams?
South Africa won one out of four Tri Nations under White's leadership (New Zealand won the other three). The year South Africa won, all three teams won two games and it was bonus points that settled the title.
Record against New Zealand: played nine, lost six.
Record against France: played four, lost two, drew one.
Record against Ireland: played four, lost two. (Ireland, ffs!)
Record against Australia: played 11, lost five.
Ranking: throughout Jake White's tenure as Springboks coach, 2004 to 2007, the All Blacks were the number one team till displaced by the Boks on October 22 2007. I don't know how low the Boks' ranking under White sank, but I do know that at one point it was fifth.
Your claim about Jake White's record is largely fantasy.
You also say: ""White is a bigger catch than if Graham Henry offered his services."" I won't go into Graham Henry's record as a coach. It should be clear even to you by now that you don't know what you are talking about.
Posted 02:07 09th March 2012
I like what @sandal and @APV1 say. The phrase "harmony with English rugby" rings true for me. What I like about SL is that he is leading the team whilst at the same time connecting with them. @heart_of_oak you want SL to work alongside an "experienced international coach", but the word "experienced" is often confused with age. What you learn from the things you try to do is "experience", not the length of time you've been doing it - or the teams you've been lucky to be in charge of. And we should not forget that SL has Andy Farrell and Graham Rowntree who are contributing to a collective experience in the coaching team. For me it has to be SL.
Posted 23:32 08th March 2012
Well we do seem rather polarised on this don't we ? We have some people singing the praises of Jake White and others saying "God No". We have some sympathy for Deano but we all know they won't go with him after blood gate. There's alot of positive sentiment about SL and, don't get me wrong, I'd like to see him in the role.
What I want us to avoid is a kind of Chelsea football coach situation where, if the guy is appointed and doesn't deliver instant miracles, then he's out the door. If SL is to be appointed then I want him to stay in place so that he can apply long term strategies to achieve a change in how we play in England. If he's appointed at the end of modest success in the 6N, then we will all be expecting too much of him.
You say you're willing to sacrifice 6N success and other test wins but imagine the pressure from the media if we have SL in place and we win nothing for several years and continue to play a rather dull brand of rugby, albeit with lots of good defence and courage. I think SL would go the way of MJ and then we most definitely would end up with a foreign coach.
So I'm saying, let's consider a more experienced international coach acting as a kind of mentor to SL. However, alot of blokes have quite rightly pointed out that the list of more experienced international coaches is not exactly flush with continuously successful charismatic figures. I'd have liked Graham Henry to fill this role but that aint gonna happen.
Anyway, I reckon I've done this to death now - que sera sera.
Posted 12:02 08th March 2012
Dean Richards for me as well (think his ban is up this summer). Unlike the other candidates he has a track record in Europe and the Premiership as well as having played international rugby. However, not sure if his dark days with Harlequins would prevent him being offered the job? For me, he's served his time.
Surely this could have all been averted in November if they'd had just spoken to Shaun Edwards. He'd have gone for the top job and he's got a pretty useful track record since joining Wasps and Wales!
Posted 11:18 08th March 2012
@ heart_of_oak - It's always good to have an opportunity to blame Saffas, regardless of whether they're at fault! ;-)
Joking aside, I have no idea whether he's a nice chap, but I disagree that SL isn't ready for the job. I appreciate that he's not had a lot of experience at this level (ok, NO experience!), but he's doing everything that is being asked of him. And he was very successful with the Saxons. You mentioned some of these things yourself. We were never likely to beat Wales and I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if we beat France or Ireland. And that's where Richie and the RFU are at odds with my feelings - they seem to concentrate on the short-term results, as opposed to the long-term development.
I've been saying it for some time now, I'll happily sacrifice the 6N and other Tests in 2012, in order to allow the EPS to develop (internally and on the pitch).
SL has proved his mettle with some decisions and, whilst I also don't understand the Stevens decision, I'm having to put my faith in him and Rowntree who know much more than me.
And then there's wazsere's point about the other potential candidates. Why should we accept a 2nd best foreign coach, when we have an English one who's proving his worth? Unlike sandal, I have no major issues with a foriegn coach, although I'd certainly prefer an English one. It's the candidates themselves who I don't think will be better than SL, rather than where they're from.
Deano? I like his ruthlessness, but is the RFU PR machine going to be able to cope with the English (and other) press if he was appointed? I think he needs to get back into Club or Saxons first and then, maybe, be considered in the future.
Posted 11:15 08th March 2012
Jake White would be the answer to my prayers! Nobody came close to the Springboks when he was in charge, they were winning World Cups and Tri-nations and it filtered down to province level with the bulls walking away super rugby titles with a squad packed with Springbok World Champions. I'd be over the moon if Jake White decides to coach England. Mallet and Lancaster pale into insignificance compared to the guy. White is a bigger catch than if Graham Henry offered his services. SIGN HIM UP NOW RFU!!!! Don't cock this up!
Posted 10:42 08th March 2012
I like what SL has done in his short time in charge. We must not forgot that SL has pretty much started from scratch so it wasn't going to happen over night. There were positives from the Wales game in particular so I hope this is the start of something good.
And England really need some continuity. If someone else is appointed then we are back to square one.
Posted 10:35 08th March 2012
I'm baffled. Jake White wouldn't be successful because he's not an Englishman and hasn't the necessary sympathies with the rugby culture notwithstanding that he is sympathetic to a 10-man kick and chase game like how the English play and the English culture and player mentality needs to change anyway because leadership was lacking at the World Cup.
I shall apply a magnifying glass to this matter in the hope it might help me understand. Frankly I think a bloke who can point the English team in the general direction of the tryline would be the sort of bloke I'd hire.
Posted 10:12 08th March 2012
@sandal - apologies if I'm not showing a heart that is sufficiently oak-like (is there such a term ?). Anyway, my main point was that I think we don't yet know enough about SL after just 3 games and I'm worried that he'll be thrown into the hot seat without enough experience. I would actually like him to be in the job for a long time because I think he has the potential to be good for us. I just don't want him to go the same way as Martin Johnson who I think was given the job despite not having enough experience. If we all agree that MJ's tenure was a failure, then why was that ? If MJ had had the chance to work alongside someone like Graham Henry, then after a few years, perhaps MJ would have seen and learnt enough about coaching an international side, to take over full time.
The arguments you all make valid though. Plus, if I was SL, having managed the team, I would not really be happy to be number 2 to someone else. I'd see it as a demotion.
Posted 10:00 08th March 2012
Posted 07:56 08th March 2012
I agree that Stuart Lancaster ought to get the job. Failing him, another Englishman.
England doesn't need outside help because it is not a developing nation or even a second-tier nation. With France, it is one of the two best-resourced rugby powers, so how could it be so craven as to appoint a foreigner? (Pity the Aussies with their appointment of Robbie Deans.)
International rugby is not a contest solely between the players on the field. It is a contest between playing cultures. That includes the coaches and the environment that nurture those players. Rugby nations are not, as yet, an assemblage of mercenaries drawn from around the planet. Leave that to soccer. That is why we readers argue so much and why our arguments are so worthwhile.
English cricket and English football, both in the top tier of international competition and both better resourced than almost any of their opponents, have become so rotten within they will appoint anyone and do anything to get results.
I don't like the way Ian Ritchie is thinking: ""It's a simple objective: To get the best person we can to do this job."" Bah! If the RFU go that way they will end up with as little meaning, and as little integrity, as the Football Association and the England and Wales Cricket Board.
But let us assume White does get the job. By abandoning his new job with the Brumbies, he would show himself to be in perfect sympathy with just such a Twickenham.
He would also be in harmony with English rugby. As I have often observed, the Springboks are the England of the Tri Nations; the two teams play a very similar game. Under White, England's game would never develop much beyond a powerful pack and a big boot, harvesting intercept and charge-down tries. Lancaster has promised us so much more.
Why don't you show a heart of oak?
Posted 05:11 08th March 2012
White would be good! What about Dean Richards?
Posted 23:00 07th March 2012
This is getting too much...
The Australian media is writing about the UK media writing about Jake White being considered for the England job... while the NZ media is writing about the Australian media writing about it... And now some more of the UK media is writing about the Australian media writing about it. And I'm sure if I log onto News24, I'm going to find the South African media writing about the Australian and New Zealand and UK medias writing about it...
STOP THE MADNESS..!!! Can Jake White just open his big fat mouth and put us all out of this mind-numbing misery!?
Posted 20:56 07th March 2012
SL has got to have it...White is holding himself out for too long (we need to decide soon who will take us to 2015), Mallett did well with Italy considering his resources BUT England aren't short on resources in any sense so the job needs to go to someone who has been coaching top level players and top level teams in recent years. That leaves SL and (in any likely circumstances) O'sullivan. However O'sullivan doesn't know the England players like SL does...and SL has had more top level coaching experience recently AND he's not put a foot wrong yet except perhaps with selecting Matt Stevens...
Posted 19:59 07th March 2012
SL has made a good start in terms of public relations and clearing out some of the old stagers, but was he ever likely to stick with Wilkinson/Tindall/Cueto et al? For me, he has the same limitations against him that Johnson had, little or no experience. I know he coached with Leeds (who got relegated) and has done work with the Academy, but how does that make him the ideal candidate? It certainly doesn't provide an incentive for any other coach in the Aviva Premiership to aspire towards. I'd rather see us go for an English coach working in the Premiership (or Dean Richards after his ban ends), or someone who has significant international experience. Otherwise, I think we'll just be getting a slightly more switched on and media savvy version of Martin Johnson.
Posted 18:22 07th March 2012
APV1, you ask for SL to be appointed and I have some sympathy with that. But deep down, I suspect it's really because we think SL is a nice guy. Don't you think we just don't know enough yet about his coaching ability at the top level ? He has had charge of the team for 3 games now and what we can say - in my opinion - is that (a) the defence has been tightened up (b) we're still giving away too many penalities but not quite as many as before (c) attacking flair is lacking and (d) the selection does now seem to be based on form (Attwood aside) rather than reputation.
I don't think this is really enough. However, I would like to see SL in the role at some point. So I wonder if the panel who choose the next manager could consider someone like Mallett in the lead role, with SL working alongside him.
Even as I write this, I don't know if it would work and I know also there are plenty of pundits who don't think Mallett is the right man for the role.
SL has done well with the Saxons but this is like our 2nd team playing other countries' 2nd teams, isn't it ? Wouldn't you expect the England Saxons to do very well given the quality of our 2nd team vs most other 2nd teams.
As I say, I would like to see SL involved, but not in the lead role, after only a few 6N games in charge. If he worked alongside Mallett, or someone of a similar stature (I really wanted Graham Henry but he's ruled himself out) then perhaps he, SL, can learn from the more experienced coach and take over after after a few years.
Perhaps if MJ had been in that sort of arrangement, we wouldn't now be looking back on MJ's "reign" so negatively which is not how we should remember MJ.
Oh and guess what, if Mallett is appointed and everything goes pear shaped, we can blame all the saffas, can't we ???
Posted 17:58 07th March 2012
He hasnt applied for the job as far as anyone knows so its very doughtful this report is true imo British press making stories up again no wonder their in such trouble with the law and govt with falling circulations
Posted 17:11 07th March 2012
SL for the role please.
Posted 17:10 07th March 2012